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AMoore
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Posted: Fri May 29th, 2009 01:20 pm |
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Darren wrote: larrybard wrote: Beats me why no one has mentioned AIG.
I have it. It covers DE events. Not only did I review the policy language, and make sure both my broker and AIG representative understood DE -- I provided them with relevant DE information from RTR and PCA -- but a good friend totalled his GT3 at The Glen about a year ago and his AIG policy paid in full.
Larry
Great, now I know where my tax dollars are going.
I have GEICO regular car insurance covering my RS America. The policy does not specifically include language prohibiting DE. I do fear, however, that they would not cover a DE incident without a fight. Accoringly, I have been getting single event track insurance. Anyone have any thoughts on this?
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Aaron Moore
2003 Corvette Z06
2001 Volvo C70 ragtop (for the wife)
1971 Schwinn Peapicker with full suspension - all original and one mean ride!
Traxxas Revo Monster Truck 1/10 scale Nitro
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rbasales
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Posted: Fri May 29th, 2009 01:25 pm |
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Read your Geico policy again. Mine specifically states that any type of track, performance and or race driving is not covered. I live in Jersey so it might be different, however,the language looks boiler plate to me so I think it is on every Geico policy.
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larrybard
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Posted: Fri May 29th, 2009 01:25 pm |
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emayer wrote: . . . . I don't think I'd take a chance with a primary insurer like AIG in today's climate.
I think that if you investigate further you'll find that the well publicized difficulties (to put it mildly) of AIG concern the holding company -- not the insurance company, which is separately regulated by state insurance commissioners and has much different financial requirements that must be satisfied. (Not that the insurance subsidiary -- like virtually every insurer -- didn't suffer from its conventional investments in equities, fixed income, etc., as the markets dropped.)
What it boils down to -- at least for me -- is that I am confident that AIG insurance is financially solvent and able to meet its insurance commitments, the policy covers DE, and the track coverage is, essentially free (i.e., at no extra cost).
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'95 993
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George3
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Posted: Fri May 29th, 2009 02:05 pm |
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larrybard wrote: emayer wrote: . . . . I don't think I'd take a chance with a primary insurer like AIG in today's climate.
What it boils down to -- at least for me -- is that I am confident that AIG insurance is financially solvent and able to meet its insurance commitments, the policy covers DE, and the track coverage is, essentially free (i.e., at no extra cost).
Larry,
I don't doubt what you're saying,
but I wouldn't want to test that theory... IMHO. 
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Das Evo
My accelerator is stuck in Wide Open Throttle . . . But I'm not recalling it . . . I like it like that !!!
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KennyB
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Posted: Mon Jun 1st, 2009 01:34 am |
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Another RTR guy, and I, have been told by our agents that our Allstate insurance is in effect for DE events. I specifically indicated "PCA Driver's Ed event, held on a private racetrack" and my agent said I'm covered. I read the policy and I think he's right.
However, with regular commercial insurers, the problem might be that if a large claim is paid, you may subsequently get dropped. Then, it may be very hard (and expensive) to find insurance for daily driving. Maybe WSIB is the way to go. I believe the DE insurers also have claims limits (Lockton allows 1 claim every ? 3 years).
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Ken Boyd
997 TT
GT3 Track car
930 Gone but not forgotten
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MikeKling
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Posted: Thu Jun 4th, 2009 11:31 pm |
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I have operated and owned fleets of vehicles for several decades now. This experience has taught me alot about vehicle insurance. Physical damage is actually the least of your worries. All policies have market or agreed cash value clauses and that limits the insurance carriers exposure to repair or replace the vehicle. When I started DE last year I was really concerned about liability. Why? Well, both the track and the club makes you sign a waiver. There's a good reason for that. This provides them with protection from any law suits.
How receptive would Instructors be to signing the same waiver for the driver student, a total stranger, who is about to drive them at a high speed, in an old car with no air bags, and a standard seat belt. To our Instructors, I don't know how you do it. You have nerves of steel.
Let's be honest. Those of us in this club are not on the first rung of the economic ladder. We all have assets that we would like to keep. Should the unthinkable happen, and a serious injury or death occur who is going to be sued? Not the track, not the club, but those individuals involved.
Law suits are about money and not some noble cause. You don't go fishing for small fish. If an attorney is presented a case involving a PORSCHE, he is going to assume that its owner is worth a few hours of paralegal time to file some papers and get a look at your assets. Those in the YUGO club probably would not garner the same interest. Just the cost of defending yourself could deplete the kid's college fund.
I have asked several members about this issue. One said that we have a gentleman's agreement not to sue each other. Honestly, if a was killed through a neglient act or omission, I don't know how much of a gentleman my wife would be.
I'm not an attorney or insurance agent. I only write this to share my thoughts and encourage others to look past repairing their car to the bigger issue of protecting what you have worked for all your life.
Wow that was deep, who wants pie?
Mike
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1988 944
1995 968
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rbasales
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Posted: Thu Jun 4th, 2009 11:59 pm |
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Umbrella Policy!!!!!!
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KennyB
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Posted: Fri Jun 5th, 2009 01:52 am |
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Mike brings up an interesting point re: liability. However, how certain would an attorney be of proving negligence? We all agree to go chasing/racing understanding that none of us are professionals. Absent an obvious error or blatant disregard of the rules, how could one driver be considered negligent and the other not?
I remember a case where 2 yoots (sorry, your honor, yoouuthes) got in a fight after a hockey game in NY. Each went to his car in the lot, retreived his weapon of choice (brass knuckles vs. nun-chuks) and went at it. One died. In civil court, the judge declared no harm/no foul as both men agreed to fight.
Fortunately, DE is quite safe except for equipment failures, and we all do diligent tech inspections, so negligence is ? All said, I still would not want to be named in a suit.
Where's the pie?
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Ken Boyd
997 TT
GT3 Track car
930 Gone but not forgotten
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STEVEMCMORN
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Posted: Fri Jun 5th, 2009 07:34 pm |
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KennyB wrote:
Another RTR guy, and I, have been told by our agents that our Allstate insurance is in effect for DE events. I specifically indicated "PCA Driver's Ed event, held on a private racetrack" and my agent said I'm covered. I read the policy and I think he's right.
Hey Kenny - be careful as that is exactly what my StateFarm agent told me .... which was not true. It was only when I insisted on written confirmation that he checked with head office and the answer was a big fat no way!
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Stevie Mc
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2005 997 - Ex DE car, now WE warrior
2007 MB GL 450 - daily driver & tow vehicle
1993 Mazda Miata SM/SSM race car #40
Jeep Grand Cherokee - the nanny's car
Subara Impreza - the wife's car
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George3
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Posted: Fri Jun 5th, 2009 07:40 pm |
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STEVEMCMORN wrote: KennyB wrote:
Another RTR guy, and I, have been told by our agents that our Allstate insurance is in effect for DE events. I specifically indicated "PCA Driver's Ed event, held on a private racetrack" and my agent said I'm covered. I read the policy and I think he's right.
Hey Kenny - be careful as that is exactly what my StateFarm agent told me .... which was not true. It was only when I insisted on written confirmation that he checked with head office and the answer was a big fat no way!
Yep.... ditto here, too. Two years ago, my Allstate agent said DE's are no problem, so long as it is not "racing." When I put him to the wall for something in writing... well then, my, my... how things changed. Suddenly DE's were not included, either.
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Das Evo
My accelerator is stuck in Wide Open Throttle . . . But I'm not recalling it . . . I like it like that !!!
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emayer
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Posted: Sat Jun 6th, 2009 01:38 pm |
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Caveat Emptor!
I'm not disputing the accuracy of what people are saying in respect to automobile policy coverage but if it were me I'd certainly want that verified in writing....
The liability issue is a vaild one for which I'm not certain there is a solution. I'm no lawyer but to me DE is much like skiing in that we are collectively assuming an element of personal risk for engaging in the sport, verified also by signing the waivers. That said, nothing is going to prevent a lawsuit, just not sure how far it would go.
I recall a case several years ago were a Carrera GT driver and passenger were killed in an on track incident. I know lawsuits had been filed against everyone including Porsche. Not certain of the outcome though, perhaps others have heard of this case.
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Eric Mayer
2009 997 TT
2010 Audi R8 5.2 FSI
1989 928 S4
2009 MB GL550
1974 MB 450slc
2009 Chevy Avalanche- "Mater"
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KennyB
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Posted: Sun Jun 7th, 2009 12:52 am |
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Steve, George
Couldn't agree with you more. I am trying to get written confirmation. I don't know if your State Farm policy had a written exclusion, or exclusionary language, but the Allstate policy does not. That I checked.
Eric,
The CGT case was well-publicized on the boards a while back. I don't know the outcome either. The issue there was an allegedly negligent flagger who flagged the CGT onto the track even though there were other cars rapidly approaching pit-out. Sounds like human error, probably negligence.
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Ken Boyd
997 TT
GT3 Track car
930 Gone but not forgotten
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Mike Andrews
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Posted: Sun Jun 7th, 2009 06:47 pm |
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KennyB wrote:
Eric,
The CGT case was well-publicized on the boards a while back. I don't know the outcome either. The issue there was an allegedly negligent flagger who flagged the CGT onto the track even though there were other cars rapidly approaching pit-out. Sounds like human error, probably negligence.
Ken,
The flagger waived a Ferrari out onto the track and the guy didn't go right away. When he did finally did get moving he entered the track in front of Ben (the guy driving in the CGT) and Cory (his passenger - his wife was the one that sued). Ben tried to move around him and lost control of the car and ended up striking a barrier.
I have my opinion as to what all went wrong but I don't see any negligence. Unfortunately I was not on the jury.
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Michael Andrews
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George3
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Posted: Sun Jun 7th, 2009 10:45 pm |
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Mike Andrews wrote: Ken,
The flagger waived a Ferrari out onto the track and the guy didn't go right away. When he did finally did get moving he entered the track in front of Ben (the guy driving in the CGT) and Cory (his passenger - his wife was the one that sued). Ben tried to move around him and lost control of the car and ended up striking a barrier.
I have my opinion as to what all went wrong but I don't see any negligence. Unfortunately I was not on the jury.
This is the perfect example of why it is so vital to stress the importance of the "blend line" and how to properly and correctly enter the track... even more so by pointing your arm out the window in "point-by" fashion letting oncoming traffic know that you see them and are letting them by.
This practice and technique should be continually preached in every classroom and at every driver’s meeting at every event.
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Das Evo
My accelerator is stuck in Wide Open Throttle . . . But I'm not recalling it . . . I like it like that !!!
.
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KennyB
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Posted: Mon Jun 8th, 2009 02:15 am |
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Mike,
Thanks for getting the story straight for us. You obviously know more about the incident than I got from my in-depth internet research.
And I certainly agree with George. Anything/everything we can do to make our fun safer is worth preaching.
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Ken Boyd
997 TT
GT3 Track car
930 Gone but not forgotten
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pearlcoupeg35
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Posted: Tue Jun 9th, 2009 10:00 pm |
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Fellas,
As the sponsoring insurance agency of the RTR Website/Forums id be happy to answer any questions about this offline.
Many of you have had MUCH more track experience than me and it shows just by reading this thread....however, not EVERYTHING in this thread is true. I wont go into online (and its not a big deal) but lets just say that DE Coverage is a VERY "Case by Case" basis. Never take someones word -- read your policy -- and if it feels 'too good to be true' it most likely is.
That all being said, i dont even offer a TRUE Track Policy in my agency --- i would recomend those websites mentioned above --- however I do have a few options for the casual DE driver.
Safe Driving!
Jon Wright
http://www.wrightagencyinsurance.com
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CURRENT PORSCHE: 2008 Cayman S (black on black) with a custom 997 GT3 front end conversion!
PAST PORSCHES: 997 C2S (guards red) w/Full Aerokit & Fabspeed pipes
Blacked out Cayenne S lowered on 22's
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Terry
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Posted: Tue Jun 9th, 2009 10:32 pm |
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| The CGT case settled. Even Porsche paid, although a relatively small amount compared to the track, the Ferrari Club which sponsored the event and, I believe, the flaggers. The decedent was a young man with an astounding earning capacity (he was riding in the CGT with a view toward buying it) and,as is always true, the plaintiff's lawyer had come up with viable negligence theories against all of the defendants. These theories could have been rejected by the jury but that would have been highly uncertain. The big issue for us was whether the release would hold up but I recall that California law was significantly weaker than Pennsylvania's in this area and that would have gone to the jury as well. The plaintiff's lawyer was not a Ralph Nader type but was actually an SCCA racer who had a good understanding of the issues. I gather that he did not go for the brass ring or the case might not have settled.
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rbasales
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Posted: Fri Jun 12th, 2009 11:11 pm |
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Great News from PCA on HDPE insurance.
[size=PCA is pleased to announce a new member benefit program for its members. We have entered into an association with Lockton Affinity who has created a Driver Education insurance program specifically tailored for our members. In addition to providing this coverage, Lockton has agreed to offer exclusively to PCA members a 10 percent discount on HPDE insurance premiums! For most of us using this service, the savings will more than pay for our yearly PCA membership dues! ]
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larrybard
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Posted: Fri Jun 12th, 2009 11:33 pm |
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rbasales wrote: Lockton has agreed to offer exclusively to PCA members a 10 percent discount on HPDE insurance premiums!
That sounds pretty good -- if Lockton offers coverage and rates that are already competitive with whatever is available from other insurers.
Has anyone already obtained a quote from them and compared it to competitors?
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'95 993
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rbasales
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Posted: Sat Jun 13th, 2009 12:08 am |
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They are competitive. They offer a $1000 deductible where WSIB is $2500 to $3000 deductible. WSIB does offer a yearly policy that the premium is based on number of events. 1-5,6-10, 11-15 etc. I guess you need to figure your cars value, number of events, deductible ETC. For my "05" 997S, 11-15 events, the quote is $1900. Any racing or timed events are specifacally excluded. The last time a insured from Lockton the premium was $287. Before the PCA discount. The difference in the deductible is the big difference. If you dont have a claim the WSIB is the better deal.
I will probably go with the Locktos.n for the next couple event
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